Official Luthiers Forum!

I paid attention to a recent similar thread..but didn't post this as I didn't want to hi-jack it..!

How would you say that your guitars compare to factory made instruments?

I think mine sound just as good or better, but my fit and finish work is nowhere near as clean as theirs. How about yours?

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I often blindfold guests and play various guitars (OM, 000-12 fret, Parlor, OLF SJ) in order to get their opinions on volume, sustain and their preferences of tonal properties. I always include my 40 year old D-35 just for comparison. When playing the 2 OLF SJ's I made, they always pick them over the D-35 as far as volume and sustain...and more than a few pros have coveted that D-35 over the years.

Every chance I get, I like to play the high end acoustics at Guitar Centers and other music stores. And while I don't have my hand made guitars there for comparison, it's my subjective preference for my guitars. This is always dangerous and I offer the grain of salt to those who read this. Often is the case that they have worn strings and the test setup is frought with subjectivity, hence, my confidence level in these opinions is lower.

I much prefer the blind and random listening test.

Playability is an area that I try to evaluate. Since my guitars are for my use only as well as for family recipients, I work on the action until it's right. This is rarely the case with factory guitars.

Fit and finish definitely goes to the factory guitars but the latest ones are getting much closer. I consider this aspect as the much lower priority over sound and playability.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ blindfolds??????

I am delusional and believe that generally speaking, accounting for old crusty strings etc. (which BTW since I never change strings my guitars have too) that my guitars sound better.

Ok enough, I have to go keep the dragon from crashing through my door while keeping an eye on the UFOs hovering over my condo.......  I just wish that noise would stop....make it stop.......please make it stop........

[QUOTE=Hesh] JJ blindfolds??????[/QUOTE]

Hey...it's not like they're handcuffed at the same time!!! Sheesh!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

This is a perfect question for a Curmudgeon.

Any Curmudgeons out there not doing anything?

I've got a Taylor Grand Concert over there that I bought my wife in 99. When Ed Dicks saw a picture of it, he asked why I bought a guitar with such horrible run out and knot shadow.

I hung my head, but had no answer, and still bought tops from him.   

One day an Olson SJ owner was at my house. While he was there because of the SJ, he picked up the GC Taylor and played it. Four months pass and the phone rings. It's my frined with the Olson.

He wanted to buy my wife's GC Taylor for his son, commenting about how much he'd liked it and that it stayed on his mind all that time. I directed him to the local Taylor dealer.

I put him on a specific guitar, a Taylor Grand Auditorium with Sitka and Ovangkol for his son. Having played that guitar and being amazed at it's sonic propensities. He bought it that day.

Luthiers make great guitars. Factories make great guitars. Luthiers make duds. Factories make duds. Each guitar must be judged on it's own merit, end of story.

A guitar that is a dud today, may sound great in five years. Uh oh, you mean I may turn down a great guitar at the store? Yup. Generally speaking though, good guitars usually sound good from the getgo, but there is that age variable.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Parser asked:
"How would you say that your guitars compare to factory made instruments? "

There are luthiers and luthiers, and factories and factories. If, by luthier, you mean somebody like Rick or Mark Blanchard or any one of a number of experienced and talented people, I'd exepct them, on the average, to make a guitar that was far superior in every respect to those of, say, most of my students. What would you expect of a comarison between, say, Collings or Taylor or Martin and a Chinese shop that specializes in low-end stuff for WalMart?

On the whole I would expect the factories to excel in fit and finish: it's easier to get control over that stuff when you make hundreds of units that are indentical, and the people doing each step are specialists in that step. Naturally, the more time and care that's put in the better, and some of the very skilled hand makers can provide F&F that's as good as anything coming out of a factory.

I'd expect, on the whole, that hand makers would do better on 'tone', however you define that. Once again, time and care count for a lot, and there are the added factors of skill and understanding. Some of us hear better than others, or have a better idea of where tone comes from or how to control it. There _are_ great factory guitars: good F&F contribute to tone, after all, and 'even a blind pig can find an acorn once in a while'. And, of course, there are some handmade/small shop instruments that just don't make it. A good factory using good designs will hit the mark pretty frequently, but a good hand maker should do so far more often.

In both areas, F&F and 'tone', I think that there is a practical upper limit. Sure, there are a few transcendant instruments in both respects, and when you get into that class of things the distribution is probably pretty even between factories and hand makers. Lightening can strike anyplace, particularly in the higher elevations.

How do _mine_ compare? I'd have to say candidly that I'm probably below average for F&F when compared to other experienced luthiers, but I'm improving. Part of that is my own pig headedness: I insist on doing it all myself, and use finishes that don't polish out as highly as the 'standards'. I can hold my own, I guess. I'm not the best judge of tone, for a lot of reasons, but my customers seem to think I'm doing pretty well, and I feel that at least I'm consistent, at whatever level I've achieved.       

Prior to wanting to build guitars, I was a habitual buy/sell guy. I've owned nearly everything, including a Henderson (yep, that Henderson). Last time I added it up, I've gone through about 65 guitars in my lifetime, most of them very well respected "brands".

Throughout the years, to my ear, I've had some winners. Of those that stand out: a Collings D2H once owned by Jack Lawrence, a Huss and Dalton TDM, a 56 D-18, a Guild DV-52, to name a few.

A few years ago, Don Williams built my first truly "one off" guitar. That guitar is better than any I have personally ever owned. Best guitar on the planet? Of course not. But it has been the best guitar on my planet. I've said that repeatedly, and I maintain it today. Not louder than some (it's an SJ), but the tone and sustain, playability and overall workmanship exceeded just about everything, in just about every category, I've ever had in my hands. That guitar was the inspiration I needed to start building for myself. And my first two? They've exceeded, or equalled, 80% of the guitars I've ever owned - and I'm a rank beginner. I'm looking forward to what my guitars will sound like in 15 more years, as I learn what it takes to make a great sounding instrument.

A one off guitar is expected to sound great, and usually does. A factory turns out so many that they're bound to have some great ones, and some not so great. But in general, I'd say a well made guitar, from a respected luthier, would outperform a factory guitar easily 9 times out of 10.

Bill

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

[QUOTE=Parser] I think mine sound just as good or better, but my fit and
finish work is nowhere near as clean as theirs. How about yours?[/QUOTE]

I had two factory instruments come in this week that were pretty incredible -
a late '42-early '43 J-45 and an SJ of the same year(s). Not bad for factory
work.

I think it may be bold to say your sound is better than theirs, but your fit
and finish work is probably better - they weren't so strange and neurotic as
to care as much about the more trivial details back then.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Alan, you make some really good points.

My guitars, no duds yet.

One is over-braced and thick-necked, but I bet you couldn't buy that guitar away from my neice.

My hope is that someday, she'll come back to the shop, from whence it came, and we can do a radical makeover.

Neck slimming and brace shaving, in all the right places.

So there, it ain't over until it's over.

Yeah, the factories have most of us handbuilders, hands down on the fit and finish. But.... have you looked at many ten year old Taylors around the soundhole?

Sheesh, Come on Bob, put some finish on these guitars.   

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

I've been thinking a lot about large scale vs. small scale manufacturing. I think I'm equally impressed with a $300 "decent guitar" as I am with a $10,000 Collings. I think it is just as impressive that someone has figured out how to make and market a $300 guitar as it is that someone has mastered craftsmanship to the point that they can market their work at the high end of the market. The thing that really humbles me is that the finish on a $300 guitar looks pretty darn good! It might consist of a nice thick coat of poly...but it still is very attractive looking.

As a born-again CNC guy...I also can't help thinking that CNC should really help people create better instruments...and it will be awesome to see this become more and more affordable for the average builder.

Likewise, I think the larger shops could learn something from the smaller ones...and maybe figure out that it is worth it for them to tweak each soundboard, etc..

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Not blowing my own trumpet but I've had a fair few folks really impresssed with the tone of my instruments.

But, like a number of folks above have said, MY finish isn't up to taylor or martin

but then, if someone wants to buy one of my builds I'll charge them a LOT less than an equivelent taylor or martin, let alone Lowden or Olsen

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My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

CNC comment reminds me of Olson.

Olson built his reputation on handmaking.

Then turned to CNC for production help.

Makes great sense.

I'm betting that Olson controlling either a router or a Computer will end up with a superior instrument.

I think I'll go flip my router on and off a few times, cya.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

I don't think it's a good comparison to talk about 50 year old factory guitars vs relatively new small shop guitars that haven't fully opened up.

I like the sound of my guitars better than any new factory guitar I've heard but, well, I'm not exactly the most objective listener.

One huge difference I see is a sense of artistry and individuality.  Most factory guitars have a cookie cutter look to them.  Somehow they look like they came from a factory.  My guitars have more individuality.

One example is a flamed maple jumbo I built recently.  When I bought the maple, it looked very white.  Once I started working with it, I saw that it had some reds in it.  Not obvious but it was there.  I had intended to use ebony binding with black/white purfling to go for the contrast.  After noticing the red, I pulled out a bunch of different binding and purfling and held them up to the maple in different combinations. I ended up with leopardwood binding (chocolate brown with some reds) and bloodwood/black purfling.  The reds were all subtle but just worked together.  In a factory, the worker at the binding station would have reached into the bin (without even looking because they've done it so many times) and glued on the same old stuff that they use on every guitar.  And Henry Ford is smiling in his grave...

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Curmudgeon? Did someone ask for curmudgeon?

One thing that strikes me about this kind of thread is that almost everyone seems to take anyone's statement that some guitar sounded great as sufficient evidence that it did sound great. I certainly don't. You can read plenty of comments on various fora about how someone's Asian built plywood guitar sounds great, which is likewise always accepted as fact. But beyond that, there are plenty of guitars made by luthiers who, if you read the forums, have never made a guitar with less than transcendent tone, that I've heard and been thoroughly unimpressed. There are maybe three or four people whose statement that some guitar sounds great is sufficient evidence for me to believe it really does. So I pretty much suspend belief about any mention of a guitar that sounded great, or that was pronounced to sound great by some owner of a high end guitar (i.e., I reject that owning a high end luthier-built guitar makes one an expert judge).


[QUOTE=martinedwards] Not blowing my own trumpet but I've had a fair few folks really impresssed with the tone of my instruments.

But, like a number of folks above have said, MY finish isn't up to taylor or martin

but then, if someone wants to buy one of my builds I'll charge them a LOT less than an equivelent taylor or martin, let alone Lowden or Olsen[/QUOTE]

[sigh] I have to hope, and don't take this personally, that your "builds" are really amateurish. One of the plagues of this and other crafts for those trying to sell for what really goes into the things is amateurs who look at the equivalent factory model and price down from there.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Howard, a curmudgeon in the making!

Here is one problem trying to evaluate a guitar by what others say. A lot of the time, they are trying to be nice. If we could only know their "true" thoughts.

I like the indirect comments, third party type comments. The comments that accidently get back to you, on the positive side of course. I put more stock in those, than most direct compliments.

Of course, I think it's quite common for luthiers to seek out great players to evaluate their work. I'll take compliments or complaints from them pretty seriously.

My hope is today I'm building better than yesterday. Like Charlie Hoffman on his site, he says, "I only build one quality of guitar, the best I can." I like his philosophy.

Charlie's fit and finish on a Cocobolo Jumbo at Frank and Richard's was amazing. What a piece of art.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

[QUOTE=Bruce Dickey]
Like Charlie Hoffman on his site, he says, "I only build one quality of guitar, the best I can." I like his philosophy.
[/QUOTE]

Everybody says that. Of course it isn't true. Take it as a statement of the builder's aspiration, rather than of reality.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

[QUOTE=Bill Greene] A few years ago, Don Williams built my first truly "one off" guitar. That guitar is better than any I have personally ever owned. Best guitar on the planet? Of course not. [/QUOTE]

Thanks a lot Bill....because of that comment, I've just had three customers cancel their orders on me because they were each expecting the best guitar on the planet. My reputation just tanked.
Gotta go see my lawyer now...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Don Williams] [QUOTE=Bill Greene] A few years ago, Don Williams built my first truly "one off" guitar. That guitar is better than any I have personally ever owned. Best guitar on the planet? Of course not. [/QUOTE]



Thanks a lot Bill....because of that comment, I've just had three customers cancel their orders on me because they were each expecting the best guitar on the planet. My reputation just tanked.

Gotta go see my lawyer now...



[/QUOTE]

Way-to-go Bill and Don!  This is the kind of stuff that I enjoy the most about the OLF.

Bill would you say that Don had something to do with inspiring you to build guitars?

I have become something of a handbuilt is best convert.

In the summer of 2006 Bob Cefalu hosted a gathering of OLF’ers of varying experience and skill from those who have completed one or two guitars to a high end builder of growing repute.

There was a guitar there with a pretty rough fit and finish that despite its visual short comings sounded as good as any comparable factory guitar of a similar design that I have played/heard. This was a consistent theme that carried through to the higher end custom builds.

I dunno what it is, but to me there is something in terms of tone captured in handmade guitars that eludes the mass produced factory built ones.

So why don't most of the factory made guitars sound as good? Is it because they over-build them and as a result limit the response?

Also, when I talk about factory made instruments I'm primarily talking about Taylor and Martin. I definitely do not think the more boutique oriented builders like Collings fit into this stereotype. Collings makes awesome stuff!

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

     I think it goes without saying that each of us will build the very bes
guitar that we're able to every time we build one. Some have developed
the skill of executing the fit and finish details that contribute to the
appearance of the guitar and others have developed thei ability to coax
great tone from each component as it works with the others as the guitar
becomes whole.

   It's important that we develop both, but not at the rate that we feel
pressured to by the seemingly quick development of some up and coming
builders...who are selling themselves into deep backlogs before they've
even built more than a few dozen guitars.

    I am like Al and do everything from much of the resaw work to the very
final passes on the butting wheel and the set up work by mtyself and in
my small shop. I love doing it all and have ejoyed the learning process in
every area.

    I feel that I can equal the fit and finish of a factory built guitar with
consistency. Most factory buit pieces are fitted with plastic bindings and
purflings, we need to remember. The plastics are so much easier to
achieve that perfect look and are so much quicker to work with that we
sometimes forget how much of a shortcut they are for the factories in
that area. Their materials are contributing to their fit and finish quality,
but we small builders use woods that are much more difficult and time
consuming to apply to those areas.

   I know that my finish abilities are better then the production houses
guys. I've actually taught a few guys who are doing finish work in a big
shop and they're really still at a novice level when it comes to achievng a
great finish. The finish is somethignthat i look at immediately because I
walways hear about how great this shop's finish is or that shop's finish is.
I have to say that I'm continually surprised that the quality fiish that I see
on the guitars in the stores that sell them is even allowed out of the
doors, but the customers are happy with them because they don't know
anything different and, for a large part, don't even know that small
builders and their custom guitars exist.

   I loved nitro lacquer and got great results with it for years and have
done alot more French polish work on fine furniture pieces than many
builders will do for decades to come. I was called by several furniture
houses in the northeast to do polish work for them on custom pieces, but
stopped to focus all of my time on building.

   The UV cured polyester finish that I've used for several years now is
probably my favorite of all that i've ever used. It can be tweaky and can
throw you a surprise from time to time, but it is more durable and comes
up to a finer gloss than any other finish I've ever seen. It never shrinks,
never turns color with age and is extremely difficult to scratch or ding so
it is where I'll be until something that I feel is better comes along.

    As far as tone goes. I've played a much higher percentage of duds from
the factories than I ever have from the shop of an experienced luthier.
Sure, both can produce duds, but its much more common in the quota
driven, "grab and glue" environment of the production houses than in the
more personal shop of the solo luthier where time is able to be taken to
examine each piece of wood and to spend the time necessary to be sure
that each step of a guitar's construction is executed to the very best of
their ability.

   I've said before in another thread that I believe that my tone and the
tone of other builders exceeds the quality of that achieved in factory built
guitars simply because it is given time an attention throughout the
construction process to ensure that it is as close to my potential as
possible.....not just once in a while, but every time.

    I love the powerful traditional tone of a Martin OM, but prefer the tone
of one of my OMs. They can be of identical dimensions and materials, but
that's where the similarity will ekd every time. My tone will exhibit that
same power that comes form the dimensional and material capabilities of
the guitar, but the difference is created by the attention that is paid to the
components critical to great response and tonal characteristics.

    My OM will always exhibit a more lush, complexed harmonic blanket
while the traditional unvoiced and hastily assembled prodcution guitar
will typically exhibit a more fundamentally dominated tone. This is
common to builders who have developed, through exposure to many
guitars, both their own and built by others, their ability to coax the woods
that they use to their tonal potential. It doesn't take anything away from
the guitar from the production shop while, at the same time, not taking
anything away from the guitar built by a luthier.

   The ability of a small shop or solo luthier to listen to a customer's
needs, select materials and build the according to them is what separates
the luthier built guitar from the production built guitar. "Custom" goes far
beyond appearance in the small shop and reaches right into things like
tone and playability and that is a valuable enough thing to lure more and
more people away from the production houses and into those of luthiers.

    We can't price our guitars according to what a production guitar is
priced at. Any builder would understand that if they understood the very
small amount of time that is actually spent on even the most expensive
production guitars. We spent alot of hours on every guitar we build and
our prices should reflect that, depending on what you think your time is
worth.

    
Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

[QUOTE=Parser]So why don't most of the factory made guitars sound as good? Is it because they over-build them and as a result limit the response?



Also, when I talk about factory made instruments I'm primarily talking about Taylor and Martin. I definitely do not think the more boutique oriented builders like Collings fit into this stereotype. Collings makes awesome stuff!

[/QUOTE]

IMHO yes.  They over build as a defensive move against future warranty work.  I also think that in some cases they over engineer as well for the same reason.

It's the bell curve thing where the hope is that one size will fit all or most.

But...... factories have in my opinion a greater likelihood that their instruments will not be cared for very well.  Again, back to the one size fits all where all are not  knowledgeable about or care to engage in the proper care of a fine instrument.

Of course this is not to say that the Luthier built guitar customer is not going to leave it in the trunk at LAX but I believe that is is less likely.  Clients for Luthier built guitars are often more knowledgeable about guitars and certainly may have more skin ($$) in the game too.

I agree with you that smaller builder/factories like Collings, Huss and Dalton, and others are not necessarily over building and turning out some very fine instruments.

[QUOTE=Hesh] Bill would you say that Don had something to do with inspiring you to build guitars?[/QUOTE]

Of course he did. Don has been inspirational, and helpful, at a level I could never have imagined. I am building guitars because of Don Williams. And I knew I wanted to try it THE DAY he handed it to me in Rhode Island. I went to Rhode Island to get a guitar...and got a great friend in the deal.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Kevin Gallagher wrote:
" I am like Al and do everything from much of the resaw work to the very final passes on the butting wheel and the set up work by mtyself and in my small shop. I love doing it all and have ejoyed the learning process in
every area. "

I've just got to ask: what's a butting wheel?

;)

I liked your point about plastic bindings. Kathy Wingert pointed out once that we luthiers do stuff that the factories don't even try to do. There are very few tricky mitres on a factory guitar, usually, for example, and ditto for wood bindings. That may not seem like much in the big picture, but it's indicative of the other, possibly more important, differences. Maybe many of the buyers out there won't appreciate what we do, and maybe they would but they haven't heard the word yet, but however we do it, we've got to get the word out.

Excellent thread!

Couple of things come to my mind.

Factories can indeed create close to perfect F& F, but I don't think that necessarily means a better-looking guitar. It's like the painting vs. digital photo comparison that Grumpy mentioned in the thread the guitarjunky started. Perfection doesn't always mean beauty, in my book.

At the NW gathering earlier this year hosted by Rick Davis, some of us were looking at an inlay (I hope I don't offend anyone who was there). I don't recall what it was or what it was on, but it was done with CNC and one of those present (GD Armstrong, I think) said it was too perfect, it didn't have any soul. I think that's what's missing from some factory instruments with fine f & F, no soul, sterile, no warmth.

As for tone, factories have to adhere to manufacturing principles to keep production numbers up. Each step has to be simplified, with much decision-making taken away from the operator at that station. Making large numbers of items requires this: what if the only one on the floor who can voice a top is sick for a few days? In Martin's case for example, they'd have to stop all production or have hundreds of rims piling up waiting for the voicing person to come back. So, voicing is taken out of the process. All the braces for a particular model are made identical, with a few exceptions. Incidentally, I think I read somewhere that only about six people at Martin can build a whole guitar, though I don't know if that means they can only do it in their factory, or "by hand."

There's the variability of wood. Making the best of each piece would require a quick decision on the factory floor as to how that piece should be shaped: how tall a brace, how thick the top, etc. But the manufacturing process as it is now dictates identical pieces. Take the top braces as an example. So we have a material that is variable that is being put to use in a manufacturing environment that by nature seeks to eliminate variables. The braces then must be all the same. To make room for that variance in the material, the pieces most affected by variability, bracing, are made with a wide margin of safety in the very area where the safety margin contributes to overbraced tops. No wonder there are so many mediocre - and worse - factory guitars. I don't envy those who have to call dimensions for ALL the tops and braces. Narrow the safety margin to get more tone on average, and your warranty rates go up. More safety, lose tone. What's a factory to do? Perhaps train people on their "custom" production lines to voice tops. It could be done. I wonder if that's done for Martin's Authentic or GE series. Anybody know? They'd be considered the wizards on the production floor.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com